THERE ARE THOSE TIMES in your early childhood when you have a moment of epiphany or an awareness that rings out loudly and clearly and never stops. Moments that serve as a tuning fork for the rest of your life, sounding out a true C note so you can always get yourself in key when you choose.
AS I’VE WRITTEN BEFORE, I had the lie of Age=Authority shown to me early in life. Whether it was the peer beat-downs that sometimes found me due to my being a tiny kid; the police occasionally appearing as adversaries to my family or their friends; the rebellious music I grew up hearing; the fact that my caretakers were at times drastically incompetent or hostile or both; or certain teachers displaying inappropriate stupidity, immaturity, or outright aggression—I labored under no belief that big people were infallible or expert.
I moved around. A lot. In some places, I found that this skepticism was not necessarily the norm in my peer groups. Some friends (most, in some areas) seemed to have kneejerk reactions to authority, be it teacher, priest, police, or parent. That reaction was to publicly obey, even to fear, to reflexively genuflect. Regardless of what the friend said, felt, or did in private. I did not, at least, suffer that contradiction. Perhaps that is unfortunate…and yet in the world I’ve known, it was best. Either way, it eventually labeled me as insubordinate, rebellious, and trouble. But what is a child to do in the face of fake and often-harmful authority—but rage?
The realization hit me over and over, though. I think we have a sense built in, a sense that expects the aged to know more. It would stand to reason. Biologically sound. Perpetuates necessary bonds and perhaps life-saving obeisance to caretakers.
Our first systems of hierarchy are probably age. Kids boast of a quarter-year seniority on each other, and it means all the world, and none of them argue the standard of measurement. It makes sense. Because even one day in a life can add an unmeasurable amount of wisdom. Should we choose to take it.
That’s the thing. That’s what rose up and hit me again. Even with all I had learned about authority figures, I was stunned later to realize how many adults remained as children. And I don’t mean childlike. I mean childish.
I remember I was about 25 and working landscaping. That’s the kind of work—labor, roofing, landscaping, stock—that I held for most of the years between 14 and 27, in fact. And I liked my boss. He was a cool cat, I thought. And then at a certain point he began dating my mother. I wasn’t too sure about that scene in general. I didn’t trust it. It’s one thing to know a Cool Cat, but when they date your mother, you have to pop on a different lens. What made the situation more uncomfortable was that he was my landlord.
I hadn’t figured it out yet, but I would soon. That he was wholly uncomfortable with any relationship unless he had a greater share of power in that relationship. He would have parties and who would be invited? All his tenants, all his employees. Looking around at the crowd, I’d think to myself the power all flows one way. Don’t get me wrong, he didn’t stomp about like Mussolini. He really was a Cool Cat. And you might not notice these kinds of things if you weren’t looking closely, or had no reason to do so.
Well, it spun out of control, of course. He turned out to be a real jerk to my mother, and I threatened to jump him in an unannounced alley of random happenstance. (I didn’t know that I could do it, but I didn’t generally think about those things in advance.) Needless to say, he didn’t renew my lease that year.
I had been sort of looking up to him before that. I felt he had treated me like a Man when we were on the job. A good “boss” overall. He was the one who first told me that you owe your employer nothing but a hard day’s work and it is in exchange for them giving you a fair day’s pay. He said “You don’t owe me for the job. It’s an arrangement that benefits both of us.” And I liked that.
And yet I found it very odd later that while he intellectually understood that, well, “with great power comes great responsibility” and part of that responsibility is allowing those with less power to have 100% of their dignity, he lived otherwise. And yes, being the student of human nature and psychology that I am, I figured out why he needed these unequal arrangements to feel safe. But that’s his life story.
I began thinking more about his life. And how he was, in many ways, running from fears in his past. And that really made me think. Somehow I had (still) been harboring some odd belief that by the time you are in your 40s, you are not ducking and dodging demons and acting out stupidly. I know, it’s very naive. Hell, I knew I was screwed up. But it hit me all at once that you could live so much of your life (well, I was 25…45 seemed old then!) and still be acting out blindly on dumb shit that someone half your age was wrestling with. It seemed a waste of years. Not advancing. Stuck.
And I decided that I wouldn’t become like him. Or that I didn’t want to. That even if I was still screwed up at 45, I would spend as much energy as I could muster to be self-aware. That if I could manage it, I would not be run around ragged by my unsolved riddles.
Well, I am about 14 years older now. And I’m probably a bit less harsh, less judgmental, though it doesn’t mean I don’t look as hard. But I feel more understanding of human nature in general. Perhaps a bit more forgiving. Living 14 years and making your own share of mistakes will do that to you. Teach you a little humility, if you’re hungry.
I find it a tragedy that in some cases, school is a stand-in for education. Or age, a stand-in for wisdom. They are not. There is potential, and then there is potential left stalled and stilled. There is a window painted shut, there is a book never touched. There is a path left alone. There is the comfortable throne. There is the appearance of wisdom and authority, and then there is wisdom. And authority. Symbol and Essence.
It might be easy to distill from some of this that I am anti-authority, or even that in my youth I had an “authority problem.” But that is reductive and misses the heart of this story.
When I was 23, I wrote a song called Inside This Little Room. And in that song there is a line “I’m looking for someone who deserves to be the boss.” It’s hard to get a feel for the song from that…it was a collection of lines that might not have seemed related, and that was by no means the theme. It just rhymed, and could mean something to the right listener. But the vocal inflection was on deserves.
When I write that I had seen through the lie of Age=Authority or that Symbol of Authority=Authority, it just means I had enough self-respect as a child—despite what anyone around me tried to assert—to know I deserved better in the cases where I was under unworthy authority, or had valid thoughts or visions, when I was told or made to feel otherwise. There can be a grain in the psyche (and I love what Jung says about grace) that allows one to create their own lessons and results, resistant to prevailing odds or formulas. And there came a point where I felt not one person in authority could be trusted or deserved that status. And yet it did not make me give up on what authority can mean in a human.
Through it all, I believe in Masters. I believe we need Masters. And Mentors. Those can be bulky and angled words, let me tell you what I mean before anyone leaps up with cries of patriarchal systems and hierarchies of power.
For one thing, I don’t mean “master” like slave/master. More like masterful. Master of her art. You have not “arrived,” perhaps…but you are now refining and deepening. No longer struggling, learning or even thinking about the fundamentals anymore; those are reflexive and hardly separate from you now. As a master, you are doing original things with your area, and in ways, redefining it simply by applying your style, which by now is a culmination of technique learned and technique adapted and discovered. (Incidentally, this is separate from inherent ability or “genius” to me; mastery very definitely involves technique and practiced skill.) This is not THE definition, of course, this is simply mine at the moment. But it is good that you know how I am using it here.
For another, I don’t think there needs to be just one, nor that a Master or a Mentor need be named as such. In fact, I’ve had one time when someone formally requested I be their Mentor and another where someone presumptuously assumed they could be my Mentor (that’s the Cool Cat above and I do find it so arrogant to assume you can be someone’s mentor let alone speak it aloud!) and in both instances the naming did nothing to advance the essence of that potential relationship. And I think probably only hindered it.
I’m still busy trying to master my own abilities. With each year, I grow more respectful of those who have spent time and years at a craft, study, or agenda. I understand what love, well-wrought, can bring to bear. I respect age. I respect age when it is not wasted looking back at immature stages and thinking them more worthy. There is a difference between Kahlil Gibran’s telling us that children do not belong to us but are on loan and have wisdom that can guide us, and in placing the appearance of youth above all other values.
Think about the message it sends children when all the ads or storylines—direct and indirect—are screaming out our fixation with youth and youthful appearance. When all the messages children are soaking up is that Old is loathesome, or simply undesirable. This is the world upended. This is a message sent to the start that the end is terrible. This is casting aside anything beautiful about a life well-lived and replacing it with self-denial. This is an early grain of harm we shove down the childrens’ throats. It blossoms. Into disrespect for the aged, disintegration of family, perverse worship of the skin and the shell, loss of such precious and necessary teachers already among us—the keepers of history, the stories that should remind and sustain us, the honey squeezed patiently from a lifetime of pollen.
So ageism abounds, yes. But it seems to me that our culture teaches it from the beginning. Perhaps the amount of ageism one harbors (to be very generalized about the whole thing) has to do with how many older people in one’s life were presented as worthy, and who presented as worthy. Because maybe, too, this respect must be earned.
There are those times in your early childhood when you have a moment of epiphany or an awareness that rings out loudly and clearly and never stops. Moments that serve as a tuning fork for the rest of your life, sounding out a true C note so you can always get yourself in key when you choose. For me one of those moments was when I realized, at about four, that an adult was lying to me. They were lying to me about what they were holding in their hands, perhaps because they thought I didn’t know what it was. And I was extremely and profoundly puzzled as to why they were trying to convince me it was something that it wasn’t. I didn’t really “get” lying until that point. And then the instant I did get it, I found it troubling that a grownup was so bad at it.
I didn’t know, of course, that this “grownup” was probably about 22. You know how it is when you’re not even five! There is, again, that instinct of deference.
Later, this note ringing out was harmonized by other incidents. Like when adults talked down to me as a teenager, or thought I was five years younger than I was (I’ve always looked a bit younger than I am.) So this persistent awareness added to the fact that I grew up looking very much younger than I was, I ended up feeling that adults were rather…obvious and clumsy in many cases.
I swore to myself then that I would never be so stupid, never talk to a kid as if I knew more than I did, or lie to them, or in general, insult their intelligence. Because to the kid, you do look stupid. You do look like a poseur. You should know better. You should know better than to tell a lie to a child. As adults we spend a good part of our day bolstering our little lies, refining our rationalizations, confusing ourselves into circles. Man, I think it’s part of the regular routine in a crazy world. But as a child we are, obviously, much less practiced and I think, better able to sense untruth. At least that’s what I planted in my own mind way back then.
And I kept that vow, you know? I did. It wasn’t even hard.
I was a counselor for a time, that’s one of the things I did. Handled problem kids! And sometimes, their families. I became valued quickly at the first clinic I worked at. I began interning there. But was soon handling my own caseload of young people, because they responded very well to me. They responded so well that the clinic offered me a company car and my own title to come work for them straight out of school. And what was my secret? Easy. I didn’t bullshit the “kids” in my caseload. Not an ounce. I didn’t moralize, either. I told them, firstly, they were in unfair positions. Because man, they were. But that’s another story.
I talked to them about what it’s like when you’re caught up in the system, and probably there because some messed up shit happened and you are having to deal with it. About how most authorities in their lives might be seeing it. And from there I segued into just talking about the practical landscape of the immediate world. And described the possible consequences of certain behaviors. I allowed them to separate how they felt about what they had to do to get through from what they had to do. I admitted to them the world was often stacked against them. I told them what a time I had had of it. I didn’t pretend that we live in a world we don’t. I spoke of the world that IS.
And really, I simply talked to them the way I would have wanted to be talked to as a young man. I met that challenge others left open. I became that person who talked real to them, admitted their challenges were real, and that it was okay to be pissed off about it.
You grow up and wonder why the world is so fucked up. Thus the passion and indignance and vehemence of the young. They are not yet compromised. They know what they stand for, and believe in. They know wrong when they see it! If they are encouraged to see it. It is true that you can teach a child all the wrong things. I’m not saying every kid is a font of clarity and wisdom. I’m saying, though, that we begin that way.
And later, too often, young people have to contend with their elders often saying “Oh stop dreaming. Oh stop being naive. This is the way life is. This is the way life always will be.” I nearly tore holes in my life as a teen because I felt I was growing up in a crazed society. I saw all the wrongness. And I heard the excuses. And I could
not
make
it
fit.
Everyone seemed complacent, accepting of an unacceptable situation. I did literally feel I was going mad with it all. And that’s youth, isn’t it?
Rachel Maddow was on the air recently, incensed with righteous anger and allowing herself to feel it. Allowing herself to access her higher self, saying “I know this makes me sound naive, but it’s wrong to lie when you attack your opponent!”
Bless you Rachel. Thank you, Rachel. That is correct. That is how we want to be. We need to stand just as tall as the truths children believe in instinctively. Not let the grit and piss and stain and sour wind of wretched hopelessness and capitulation to the currents of the system wear us down to where we accept Lie as Truth. It’s as if we have a collective death wish, to abdicate spiritual integrity so casually.
Why not ageism if the adults around you are full of shit and lost and justifying torture and speaking out both sides of their face and killing each other and CLEARLY out of their minds??? At one point you do give up in a sense, don’t you? It’s “the world won’t change” moment. Or maybe it’s the “I’m just trying to make a living” moment. Or maybe its the “don’t have time to worry about that” moment. I don’t think any of them are unearned. Or unjustified. It’s hard sometimes to tell where the system ends and where a person begins. But don’t most of us meet that moment where our clarity of vision meets hard, hard practicality? Do we surrender too much, too easily?
We need to become masters. And become students. And remember the note ringing out all our lives. We need to teach children that it is a glorious gift, these days stacked together. If we feel bad about the lines in our faces, we need to invent stories again that explain them. Is Science the best explanation? Does that tell the truth of those lines? When you talk of a scar, do you speak of the keratin? Or do you speak of the lesson? We need to not chuckle over the indigenous fables, but respect them for what they are: humans who were wise enough to know how to teach, how to instill the worth and truth one knew into a reality one could not personally explain.
People like John McCain suffer from ageism? Yes. And you know what else? People like John McCain are a big reason there is ageism. People who demonstrate to children watching that their grandest words are like shitsmears across the eyesockets of a fine cotton mask, that their smile could sparkle even while they choked you (or maybe just their c**** of a wife), that they will stand for everything they said they stood against are the reason children grow up and have no respect for adults and empty authority and age.
Why should they? It comes down to self-respect. Any self-respecting person loathes a transparent fraud.
We need to connect beauty and age again. Not on John McCain’s watch. He is no lesson of what age can bring. His is the lesson of wasted wisdom.
But of course, this is much bigger than John McCain and the 08 election. This is about our culture for the next 50 and 100 years and all that springs from that.
We must remember and practice that children’s hearts, self-worth, and “I” are just as big as anyone’s—even when their vocabulary and dexterity and mass is less. We must make ourselves and our politics, even, into examples of which we can be fiercely proud, not just able to rationalize. We need to stop teaching fear of age and worship of youth. We need to teach a model of authority that both gives and commands respect, not one that denies it to the weaker and then screams and wheedles for some back. We need to make the best use of our own days, strive to learn, to study, to understand, to master our own method.
Ultimately, ageism is of another problem. For there are certain principles that are lost in the rush to capitalist and materialist goals. That no thing of worth is produced without time passing and energy spent; that there is no such thing as a shortcut, for this balance is inescapable; that the external can obscure the true value, and someone with ten years on you may know of an entire world you’ve not even heard of.
Or they may have just spent more days kicking around the planet.
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Jesus, you nailed it.
I remember when I was working at a restaurant sometime between 14 (I lied to get the job) and 16, someone asking me why I was sitting with customers she considered “trashy” people.
I said, “You know, I have never met one person who didn’t have something to teach me.”
There are many types of mastery at living, some so minute and beautiful that only with childlike innocence can one see them.
People get discourage, I think, without even knowing exactly why…. but you nailed it. There are no Elders to look up to anymore. The Elders who should be directing our lives are marginalized by the adults who act in greed, fear and violence.
Society itself has not aged well.
Your particular mastery is in being able to see this and relate it so very well.
Besos,
d
… and I should add (naggy mom-type, me) I would love this to be shared on wwl… it is brilliant.
gracias, diane, sylvia. i appreciate the feedback. diane, if i can find the moments to do so i’d love to crosspost it at your joint, thanks again so much. 
your words are fantastic, too. “Society has not aged well” so very true. thank you.
Cool, & thanks, but the proof that you like them will only be if I see them someday on an anarchist’s Chihuahua’s t-shirt.
Heh.
I say woof. Keep hope alive.
Thank You.
In my more lucid moments, I am sure I still have some, I am certainly aware that I can not multi-task they way I could in my younger years. Sen. Johnny Mac has an additional decade of semi-confusion on me and…..UH..I forget my point…and I had more than one to express too!
hate when that happens.
–
it really was my pleasure, miranda. thanks for hangin’ out.
your heart is so wise.
i love the pace of your writing, too - how it seems to have a sort of visual aesthetic to it even though sometimes when i read one of your entries i realize at the end i have tried to read it too fast because i’m unconsciously holding my breath the whole time.
thank you…and i appreciate the feedback on the aural/visual quality. i like what you say because when i write pieces like this, i do see them unfold in front of me in many places, or when the flow is going well. thanks again. peace.
Very nice post!
Thank you, PhysioProf.
Bravo!
Damn, you’re good. I need to come here more often. (and will when I get cable…love your site, but it’s not dial-up-friendly).
Thank you, La Lubu.
True, not dialup friendly. But the RSS feed should be. If you’re an RSS sort, that is.
Hope to see you again!
I remember the terrible liars too. Even the ones who were somewhat better at it, you still sense the lie as a child. Thanks for this post.
thanks, celeste.
Me gusta mucho este post. There’s a lot in here that resonates with me about power and respect. I think sometimes we get so caught up in (rightly) combating unjust hierarchy that we don’t really think about what mentors or masters are and why we need them.
Which actually can often feed into the ageism. If we’re so suspicious of hierarchy that we forget why elders are important… well, then those who have seen more of life than us become, in our eyes, ugly and stupid throwaways.
Honestly, I sometimes think that all the Alzheimers, all the dementia, etc. has as much to do with how we collectively discard our elders as it does with plaque in the brain. When you tell someone she has become useless, unnecessary, a pale imitation of a person… is it any wonder that her mind begins to fade?
I’m not saying this to be woo-woo, or to suggest that dementia of various sorts is not a physical problem. I just mean, well, everything I’ve ever read says that keeping one’s mind engaged is good preventative medicine.
And I think we live in a culture that treats the aged as if they have little positive to do with those minds. People grow up knowing they’ll end up in homes, retired in boring places far from those they love, etc. That can’t help people’s chances of remaining mentally healthy.
If we treated older people as repositories of knowledge and experience and, well, *life* — would so many have such serious problems with *memory* — problems with reconstructing the rich story of their lives?
Somehow I think not.
Trin
I love your ideas on getting so wrapped up in rejecting all power paradigms that we discard wisdom and those who might have it. In fact, I see the “nobody should have any power over me or more power than anyone else” type of angle that seems to be at the end of many discussions on Privilege and Power as too easy an ally with the whole youthful self-centeredness and entitlement that pop culture marketing feeds into. So…I guess I’m just restating what you said. Good stuff.
In addition to most USA citizens understanding, via our common dialogue and media, that our youth is all we have of worth (which I agree, helps to destroy people) I also think that many processes and chemicals in our environment add up to destroy the body and brain.
Thanks for your comments and contribution. Adds a lot, as usual.
My WWL still longs for this wisdom, which btw, I have given you the ability to post directly to the front page.
Thank you, Diane. I really appreciate the honor. I will do my best to get it over there by tomorrow! Thanks again for the support and the opportunity.
Such a great post. You tease out the differences between those stubborn ‘other truths’ (that just won’t go away) and ‘essentialised truths’ (the ones the popular media force-feed us). For every all-knowing elder bigot there’s a four year old she-master who cuts through deceit with silence. For every young super-achiever making the cover of Time there’s an ageing prophet living his days in an unmarked ghetto.
By essentialising our experiences, by clustering people into “youth”, “middle-age”, “old” or whatever - and then ascribing defining attributes to those clusters - we are reproducing a warped and fickle kind of market-morality. One of my favourite documentaries on this kind of manufacturing of consent and manipulation of desire - using the theories of Freud in fact - is called the Century of the Self, available here http://freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=140.
Just lastly (I fear I say too much :-/ ) in using the language of ANTI- it becomes more important to say in the same breath what we are FOR. And because these are not simple opposites, it sometimes means speaking in almost mystical paradoxes… because the opposite of patriarchy is not matriarchy (in terms of what I am struggling FOR). The opposite of hierarchy is not the rejection of mastery.
Anyway, enough said. Thanks again for the heartening read!
niteflyer, thanks for your eloquent words, and for teaching of the concept of “essentialised truths.” i think you’ve really added a lot to the page.
i will scope out your link. peace.
Nezua: Yes, I definitely think you are right there, too. It’s a lot of different things. I just think… valuing people more, talking to them, listening to their stories absolutely couldn’t hurt and would, most likely, help.
i guess i shouldnt have thrown it out there, distracting. you just tapped into a thought i have a lot. but i dont want to pull the thread offtopic. thanks.
I like the post and the new site, too … it loads so much faster !!!
I waited a while to write this, since it isn’t altogether laudatory.
I find this post rather problematic in an internet-bloglandia environment in which older people are almost completely ignored in favor of the young, hip, pretty and new. Particularly women, who aren’t in as many important academic/journalist positions requiring blogging, as men are. Women over 50 are virtually invisible in Blogdonia; I’d say the ratio is something like 100:1. This is a recurring discussion on age-50+ message boards, so it isn’t just me complaining (as was recently suggested by a BIG BLOGGER)…I don’t see many (any?) old folks on your blogroll, or any group blogs about age or disability. Why not?
Should I listen to what you say about age = wisdom (or not), in light of this fact? If I wrote about something in detail (say, immigration), yet did not consistently link the EXPERTS on this topic (meaning, the people who have actually experienced the reality), how would that look to you?
I read your piece as: more good reasons to ignore these stupid old people. I know you didn’t actually say that, but that’s how it FEELS when you have been ignored repeatedly, for a year. You know? If I didn’t have a guest-blogging gig coming up, I might have stopped blogging last month, because I am very, very tired of the disrespect. I see the “young and hip” factor as being far more valued than any wisdom or WHATEVER, old people have to offer.
All I can say is, yall WILL be old someday. If you want that to be relatively pleasant, how about being NICER to old people NOW.
And I don’t mean John fucking McCain and his junkie wife, I mean the progressives who MADE THIS MOVEMENT, right here in your midst. Some of us have been lefties for decades, yet are treated like common interlopers who don’t know history… I was corrected recently about an event that I personally attended (counter demonstration, GOP convention, 1980): “Your story isn’t in the official accounts I’ve read”– some KID wrote to me. (translation: you can’t believe some old broad like me who was actually there, unless there is some official white-man history book that verifies MY account. Jesus H Christ! And these are supposedly progressives!!!!)
Thanks for letting me rant. You are a fabulous writer, which of course is why this was hard for me to read (had to do it in shifts, taking deep breaths) and even harder to reply to. I am not in your league, but I just had to say SOMETHING.
Thank you for your time, and for listening.
There are no Elders to look up to anymore.
Gee, thanks Diane.
(See, why I nearly deleted my blog?)
DaisyDeadhead, thanks for your thoughts. Especially since you say it was hard for you to lay them out here. I’ll do my best to answer.
I find this post rather problematic in an internet-bloglandia environment in which older people are almost completely ignored in favor of the young, hip, pretty and new. Particularly women, who aren’t in as many important academic/journalist positions requiring blogging, as men are.
Yes, well, our entire culture here in the USA favors that. Agreed. That’s what I’m talking about. I don’t know that more male bloggers are out here because their jobs require it (they very well may be, I just wasn’t aware of that). You may be referencing a story or stats I haven’t read. Feel free to drop them in. I’m not one to ask for links and stats, but otherwise, we are just going by our anecdotal experiences on this one. And if so…I’m thinking of all the friends I know online…and all the males that I know are not blogging as part of their job. I’m not. And only one or two are in my blogroll that I know. One who got his job from blogging (for free)…but—
Irrespective of that job note, I agree. From what I’ve seen at least, men do seem to predominate the web. But I can only speak for myself and say that I do make an effort to absorb perspectives from women and feminists and I do work with some very smart and able women in activism. True that most I work with are under 50.
Women over 50 are virtually invisible in Blogdonia; I’d say the ratio is something like 100:1. This is a recurring discussion on age-50+ message boards, so it isn’t just me complaining (as was recently suggested by a BIG BLOGGER)…I don’t see many (any?) old folks on your blogroll, or any group blogs about age or disability. Why not?
Firstly, how do you know who is how old on my blogroll? I don’t know that I really represent the Internet, or the Internet Male, but okay. If I am to represent that and we are to examine my blogroll, let me check it out.
Well, just glancing at it, I’d say there are a handful of people in their 40s and four women in their 50s. Considering the shortness of my blogroll, I think you are wrong on that count.
But even if not…help me understand what the blogroll measure is. What I mean is what are you gauging by it? My feelings on the elderly? How much absorption of words from people over 50 I experience? Because not everything shows on my blogroll, you know. I mean, some of my longest ongoing and best email relationships that I have cultivated are with people in their 50s. Some of these people tend not to actually own blogs and blog less. More often they are readers. Except for a friend, Rob Kall, who owns opednews.com where I sometimes blog. He’s gotta be in his 50s. He’s not on my blogroll, but he is on my Twitter list!
Anyway, I don’t know if the number differential is because of the relative newness of blogs and Internet; I know the technology has left some older people feeling unsure. They don’t seem to take to it as easily on a large scale. I’m sure individually, there are many who do take to it right away. But I was talking on the whole. That disparity would of course play out on other levels, too. Like how many blogs are owned and written by elderly people, and how many end up on blogrolls.
My blogroll does not feature any group blogs on age, on cancer survivors, anal bleaching, birth defect support groups, nor any on heroin recovery, nor on trout fishing, dental braces, x-men fans, or skateboard artists. Why? I’m not sure there’s any one way to answer it. I don’t even have all the Latino/Latina blogs listed. I don’t have many Asian blogs listed, only a few, and no Polish or Jewish blogs. I don’t have any blogs that focus on fotography, which is a great love of mine. I have no Iranian blogs listed, no Iraqi blogs listed, no India blogs listed. I have no blogs on videography, which is my career. I have no blogs listed that feature acne scar support groups, even though I’ve a lot of feelings about the scars I bear from acne. I don’t have myopic blogs listed, or beach-lover blogs, tattoo-artists, single parent blogs, or comedian’s blogs listed. Why?
Should I listen to what you say about age = wisdom (or not), in light of this fact?
That is up to you, of course. I’m not really asking anyone to “listen” t it. I’m just sort of thinking out loud and seeing if it connects with people. I’m glad it has connected with you. I’m not an age expert or anything. I’ve just lived a life and it has taught me some things. I share them here. Some of them.
If I wrote about something in detail (say, immigration), yet did not consistently link the EXPERTS on this topic (meaning, the people who have actually experienced the reality), how would that look to you?
First of all, I have experienced “the reality.” In fact, that is what I write here. Just as stated in my “Quien” page. My personal stories. That is what this post is mostly built on.
And to your question, well, it depends. If your hypothetical post on immigration were written in a very academic tone, I’d wonder why you did not provide links. If it were, instead, written as I wrote this piece, narratively and personally and experientially, I’d not think twice to see an absence of links.
I read your piece as: more good reasons to ignore these stupid old people. I know you didn’t actually say that, but that’s how it FEELS when you have been ignored repeatedly, for a year.
Hmmm. It sounds to me as if you are mixing your personal experience this year with my post. I guess I’m just glad that others didn’t feel I was saying that. That’s a bit simple for what I’d hoped you take away.
But yes, I do think some old people need to be mostly ignored. That was a part of my post. I think fools and idiots ought to be loved and protected as long as they dont try to hurt you in the process, but be they old or young, they should not be listened to—or with many a grain of salt! I think many people who have lived many years have wasted thier potential to store and experience and pass on wisdom (and they pass on that lack and so the circle gives back). That is also part of my post. Yes, I think people like John McCain are some of what I am speaking of.
If I didn’t have a guest-blogging gig coming up, I might have stopped blogging last month, because I am very, very tired of the disrespect. I see the “young and hip” factor as being far more valued than any wisdom or WHATEVER, old people have to offer.
I am sorry the Internet has been harsh on you. I know those moments. It can feel like a piano falling on your head and you never want to stick your feet in that street again.
But I never really know what to say when people talk about quitting blogging as if…as if it could ever be done for any reason but to satisfy themselves. And if so, then surely do quit. I mean, we blog for free! It’s for love or it’s for nothing as I see it. I know some people get paid. But the time I put into my grafiks and prose? It’s for love. If people are disrespecting you on the regular at certain sites, I’d say you are hanging at the wrong sites. And if it’s your own blog, well lay down the law! And even then, as I know well, the hate may still come. What do you do?
You remember why it is that you do what you do. And if you cannot find a reason, you leave.
A site where nobody will disrespect you due to your age is The Sanctuary. Check it out! Nor will I disrespect you here. Not on purpose.
I see the “young and hip” factor as being far more valued than any wisdom or WHATEVER, old people have to offer.
I agree on the whole.
Granted, my post really sort of featured the younger view because I was talking a lot about my childhood and what I learned coming up, so I do get why you might feel upset by it, added to the rest of your experiences of course But I don’t know what to do except speak what I’ve lived as I’ve lived it. In ten years—even in one year—I’ll have things to say that will augment this line of thinking. This is not my final word on the topic, and in fact I am only beginning to delve into it.
All I can say is, yall WILL be old someday. If you want that to be relatively pleasant, how about being NICER to old people NOW.
Hmm. Well, it’s all relative you know? I don’t really think of myself as so “young” anymore! I’ll be 40 next year and I thought I’d be dead at 14. But this post is not about being “nice.” It’s about wisdom, respect, and a broad perspective that can span from a young child to an older person and how to maintain a clarity, or give it back, or find it. Something like that.
And I don’t mean John fucking McCain and his junkie wife, I mean the progressives who MADE THIS MOVEMENT, right here in your midst.
I don’t really see “junkie” as a way of insulting someone off the bat with no questions asked. I’ve had dear friends who died from the needle and friends who are hopelessly addicted and maybe Mrs. McCain has a hollowed out heart and it hurts her and she dopes up or maybe one day she found herself on state-sanctioned dope that has a harder grip than you might know and….what do I know? You know?
And I don’t know what ‘movement’ you are talking about. The movement to bring respect and equality and pride and safety to Mexican Americans and their families? Yes, you are right. There are elders. And if you search my blogs you will see me often reference their writing, their passing, or their work. In fact, the post I wrote Saturday was one of those.
Some of us have been lefties for decades, yet are treated like common interlopers who don’t know history… I was corrected recently about an event that I personally attended (counter demonstration, GOP convention, 1980): “Your story isn’t in the official accounts I’ve read”– some KID wrote to me. (translation: you can’t believe some old broad like me who was actually there, unless there is some official white-man history book that verifies MY account. Jesus H Christ! And these are supposedly progressives!!!!)
I don’t really buy the whole “Progressive” label either. I’ve seen too much bad attitude and faulty frame behind the term. So I hear you on that. And I do understand how you feel angry and slighted. I’ve been hearing from people lately similar things. I wonder if there is a large generational feeling of anger or indignance that a new time has come and the last generations are not getting credit for work done in the past. Interesting.
But you also speak of a certain attitude that demands data and pie charts and invalidates personal stories. And I am with you on that count. Personal stories are very very important.
There is widespread disrespect for elders’ stories. I’m sure there are many reasons for this. We need to think on all of them to correct it. As I said in my post, though. If you are not an elder who knows how to communicate and experience your own wisdom, why would anyone listen?
Thanks for letting me rant. You are a fabulous writer, which of course is why this was hard for me to read (had to do it in shifts, taking deep breaths) and even harder to reply to. I am not in your league, but I just had to say SOMETHING. Thank you for your time, and for listening.
I’m happy that you put it all here. I don’t know that I answered you in any way that will work for you, but I tried my best to be honest, too.
Keep blogging. Show and share the wisdom you have. Remember that anger may not be the best vehicle for that wisdom. Not that I’m anger-free…in fact that’s how I know this to be true.
Peace.
Thanks Maestra Cero! I was actually thinking of you when I made the site, cuz I know you were one of the ones to talk of how slow El Grito loaded for you. Good to see you here!
Just a few points. Thank you for taking so much time to answer politely and kindly.
1) As an ex-addict, I have the right to call C. McCain a junkie. (I thought you knew this, due to the piece of mine linked at Feministe some time ago, so sorry for that assumption.) This word also reflects my considerable anger that CM was allowed to walk away from her junkie-inspired thieving without being charged with a crime, while her husband supports Draconian laws against drug-users, even pot-smokers–and by all accounts, Cindy has never objected. One set of laws for Cindy, another for everyone else.
2) I consider a blog roll a sort of endorsement. Apparently, this is not what you consider yours to be, so never mind. Mine reflects my interests, politics, job and everything else.
3) And I don’t know what ‘movement’ you are talking about. The movement to bring respect and equality and pride and safety to Mexican Americans and their families? Yes, you are right. There are elders.
I was referring to the Left in general, which I am old fashioned enough to believe is ONE cause (Daddy Karl said history moves in one progressive direction, dialectical materialism, yada yada; right or wrong, I tend to operate that way because old habits die hard). But yes, it applies to every movement, of course.
What I’ve noticed recently is how respectful the Right is, to THEIR elders. This is because they think tradition is largely a good thing, whereas the Left, in general, seems to think tradition is something to overthrow/condemn.
4) “Granted, my post really sort of featured the younger view”
I think this is the aspect of your piece I responded to. You jarred me, taking the side of the popular majority, which you don’t usually do. And my point is, whether you think older people are running the joint or have all the money (I’d argue the majority of old people in the world are poor, but yes, many are rich, often simply due to the fact of years of accumulation and inheritance)–here on the net, it’s a very segregated world. And I guess I was asking, what can we all to do to help change that? If anything? Nobody seems to CARE, I suppose, is my point. And when you wrote that certain old people do not deserve any respect (and I didn’t really see you explaining which ones DO, although you took pains to say which ones DO NOT–this was why Dianne’s comment that there are no elders left, made total sense after reading yours)… well, that just bolsters the status quo, as I see it. And the net result is that old people are intimidated re: blogging.
When one doesn’t know all the ins and outs of a language (and the internet DOES have its own language), of communication and signals (do I really have to explain this to someone who addresses bilingual issues so consistently in his writing?), one can feel left out and confused. I could easily make a list of stuff I don’t understand on the net, but have been too embarrassed to ask. I’m sure I’ve missed a LOT of underlying meanings and implications, since I don’t understand the jokes, the abbreviations, teh reasonz peepul start ritin liek dis. (What?) I’ve been called rude by people who use the word FUCK more than Tony Montana. I just shake my head in amazement. But the NET RESULT is that old people just give up trying to communicate at all. And I am about social change, I do not stay in my little assigned ghetto. I see these self-contained ghettos as very damaging (another reason I asked about the blogroll) and just another form of segregation that must be broken down. This, admittedly, is one of those Age of Aquarius sentiments, and the whole concept is mostly laughed at these days, regarded as another hippie (i.e. OLD PEOPLE) article-of-faith that the young people have discovered was misguided and stupid.
Nietzsche’s Last Man of History: “We know everything that has ever happened, and there is no end to derision.” That is what I see in Blogdonia, and I’d like to change it. I honestly believe an end to the derision will be good for EVERYONE, not just me. Disrespecting the representatives of the past simply can’t be a good thing for the future.
But I guess we’ll see about that, right?
Again, thank you for your thoughtful reply.
1) As an ex-addict, I have the right to call C. McCain a junkie. (I thought you knew this, due to the piece of mine linked at Feministe some time ago, so sorry for that assumption.) This word also reflects my considerable anger that CM was allowed to walk away from her junkie-inspired thieving without being charged with a crime, while her husband supports Draconian laws against drug-users, even pot-smokers–and by all accounts, Cindy has never objected. One set of laws for Cindy, another for everyone else.
That’s not what came through to me. What came to me was that “junkie” was an easy derogatory slur for her, which I am surprised at given your past.
I was referring to the Left in general, which I am old fashioned enough to believe is ONE cause (Daddy Karl said history moves in one progressive direction, dialectical materialism, yada yada; right or wrong, I tend to operate that way because old habits die hard). But yes, it applies to every movement, of course.
What I’ve noticed recently is how respectful the Right is, to THEIR elders. This is because they think tradition is largely a good thing, whereas the Left, in general, seems to think tradition is something to overthrow/condemn.
As I said, I do celebrate elders. In the Chicano Movement and community, elders and tradition are very important.
How many Chicano/Chicana elders do you sport on your blogroll?
4) “Granted, my post really sort of featured the younger view”
I think this is the aspect of your piece I responded to. You jarred me, taking the side of the popular majority, which you don’t usually do.
This sounds like you expect me to write from a contrary stance, which I do not. I write my experience, which I’ve done above. So I am doing what I always do. Your expectations have been jarred, that’s all. Contained in that post are all the reasons why I do speak from that vantage point. It’s not arbitrary and it’s not ageist. Maybe you should reread it.
And my point is, whether you think older people are running the joint or have all the money (I’d argue the majority of old people in the world are poor, but yes, many are rich, often simply due to the fact of years of accumulation and inheritance)–here on the net, it’s a very segregated world. And I guess I was asking, what can we all to do to help change that? If anything? Nobody seems to CARE, I suppose, is my point.
Yet, you come to the one post I’ve seen lately talking about age/youth and the relationships…and lash out at me? That seems an odd way to “help change” things. I see my post as an attempt to begin that help. Not perfect, didnt say all the things that would please any one person, but at least I’m talking about it. And as I said in my last comment, stick around. In ten years I”ll be older. I’ll be writing different things.
(update: I guess it is valid to come to this post and argue it as an attempt to change things, now that I think about it. I just think that the energy could be put to better use, given your objectives. I can really only write from my vantage point. But yours! Yours clearly desires a larger platform, and I don’t know that my comment thread is adequate.)
And when you wrote that certain old people do not deserve any respect (and I didn’t really see you explaining which ones DO, although you took pains to say which ones DO NOT–this was why Dianne’s comment that there are no elders left, made total sense after reading yours)… well, that just bolsters the status quo, as I see it. And the net result is that old people are intimidated re: blogging.
I may be kind to older people just because they are old, and I may protect them. That type of respect I will give them just for being aged. But…I won’t automatically heed all they say or expect it to reek of wisdom. I will listen, I will seek the wisdom there because it can be contained in but a few words, and without being dressed up. So I do give respect in that sense. But as I said, ignorance and idiocy can reside in the elderly. As a child it was important for me not to give automatic deference. It would have ruined my soul. I hope you get what a lot of my story was about. It seems you did not.
And as far as me listing what types should be listened to? My blog is not what you think it is. I do not tell people what to do and they listen. Again, I’m just sharing my experience. And if all I share in this one writing is which people I found it important NOT to listen to…it’s a good start. And again…there is a reason the story takes that shape.
Blogging is intimidating for older people…we’ve agreed on that. But I’m not sure what you imply. That all the action in the wolrd goes down on the Internet? And if older people don’t get on the Internet, they do not exist in the world? Hmmm. I guess I just dont see it that way. Many people do not blog on the Internet. And I agree with the inevitable conclusion: The Internet is NOT representative of society. I’ve said that many times myself. But I see a solution for you and your issues. You seem empassioned and strong. Good qualities for someone who will forge a new place for their issues. I’ll come back to this.
When one doesn’t know all the ins and outs of a language (and the internet DOES have its own language), of communication and signals (do I really have to explain this to someone who addresses bilingual issues so consistently in his writing?),
No, you don’t. Nor do I see the point of what you are saying. I don’t understand a lot of new internet lingo, either! I don’t use a lot of what is thought “cool” in that sense, I don’t care either. I make up my own lingo! And my readers come along with me.
I don’t understand polish blogs or iranian blogs or lots of blogs that speak in other languages. Yes, there is access issues. But what should be done? I can’t ask the Polish and Iranian or Japanese bloggers to blog in my language. So I have to pick an area and study it if I want access. Right?
Or if someone came up to me and asked me I would help them understand anything I could.
I took Spanish classes, you know? Nobody started explaining to me what Spanish meant, I still dont understand lots of Spanish. I do feel left out, and that is my own culture! So what do we do to help me understand all the Spanish I don’t understand? Is that your responsibility? Not in my eyes.
And I am about social change, I do not stay in my little assigned ghetto. I see these self-contained ghettos as very damaging (another reason I asked about the blogroll) and just another form of segregation that must be broken down.
I see certain circles as community. And they need to be strong because the mainstream will not address their issues. Do you call, now, the Afrosphere a “ghetto”? Do you call the Latino community blogs that provide solidarity to each other to address immigration reform because the mainstream doesnt care as much, a “ghetto”??? Do you call the Asian blog circles a “ghetto”? Do you think these communities need to be “broken down”?
Here is the idea I hinted at earlier: perhaps you DO need to make a new community site/blog for elders. As us Latin@s and allies did with The Sanctuary.
Think about it! I think its a great idea! And then you dont have to be so frustrated with others but can use all that brimming bubbling energy to empower you and your cause.
Buena suerte! (”Good luck!”)
Okay, I apologize for my many misunderstandings about what your blog is. I have linked your various posts several times on other blogs, in emails (wite magik attax, particularly), etc… and I thought you were about educating people. I’ve certainly been educated reading your blog.
I also never meant to sound like I was “lashing out”–I was merely talking. Disregard, please, if you find my arguing offensive.
1) What came to me was that “junkie” was an easy derogatory slur for her.
I do have a lot of contempt for Cindy McCain and her ilk, so that comes through. I have never liked it when spoiled, upper-class junkies invade NA/AA with their privilege, therapists, characteristic bourgeois hysteria (what will the neighbors/garden club SAY???!) and conspicuous lack of arrests/jail time. As good-looking, affluent, pampered folks, they gobble up the attention that rightly (in my pseudo-Marxist opinion) needs to go to the poorer addicts with little or no privilege.
[Speaking of which, I say "junkie" primarily to puncture the ego of that kind of person, on purpose. Rich folks are designated "addicts" who are "ill"--while poor people are simply "junkies"... I consciously and deliberately reverse those labels.]
Also, I am profoundly skeptical of ANYONE who conveniently scurries into treatment right after being caught stealing (or whatever it is)….I’ve often been stuck sponsoring these people and they usually are not all that committed to sobriety; rehab was simply a legal dodge. If Cindy turns out to have been rather slack at it (as Kitty Dukakis was, during a previous presidential campaign), please remember these words. I’ve actually laid a bet on it. 
Someday, I’ll have the nerve to talk more about the Hollywoodization of the 12-steps, but I’ve been too scared to write that post so far. When I do, I’ll let you know.
2) Yours clearly desires a larger platform, and I don’t know that my comment thread is adequate
I don’t have many readers; it’s kind of embarrassing, actually. (And as you can see, I don’t say these things very well, which is why I try to create new allies. Not working, is it?)
3) How many Chicano/Chicana elders do you sport on your blogroll?
Only one that I am aware of, and that is pretty bad. 
Learning Spanish would help! My granddaughter, I’m pleased to say, IS learning Spanish! So, I think future generations will also learn from my errors.
4) My reference to ghettos was to old people’s blogs and writing, which so far seem consigned to a tiny, closed corner of the net. It’s interesting that these blogs seem pretty diverse (race, religion, ethnicity) but have in common that they are all by OLD PEOPLE… which has made me wonder about style, language, writing, internet access, and many other factors.
5) Your suggestion is very good. The problem with old people is getting them online; there is also a parcel of old folks who will get online, but have a fear of posting replies. (let alone starting a blog themselves!) Not sure why, but trying to figure that one out. Some write fabulous, long emails, too, so it isn’t that they can’t write.
Sorry if I came off as trolling or as trouble-making, that was not my intention. Thank you for your patient interaction and your time.
And, like so many other folks, I love your blog.
out the door to do some dull errand stuff.
if you need help with logistics of building that community site talk to me. i’ll help in any way i can.
peace.
oh yeah, a small distinction. i am not educating people…as such. i am educating myself and doing it out loud. a lot of people connect to that and learn…but that has as much to do with them as it does my intent. probably much more to do with them, actually.
and of course i appreciate the links.
perhaps “lashing out” was a bad choice of words. this is one of the problems that comes when we are angry about something; people you are talking to can personalize your anger if the wording isnt carefully done. forgive my misreading your approach. i accidentally felt a target, i suppose. stuff like when you typed “YALL WILL be nicer one day!” etc.
ps i like your thoughts on NA/AA. here’s hoping you begin cutting into that meat soon. now really, i do have to run…
I’m an old guy. I like Nez’s blog a great deal and I don’t find the ageism thing all that apparent here. And let us not forget that age is a relative situation. I introduce my even older friends to my granddaughter and they say, “Here’s my great granddaughter”. So, is old 55, 75 or 95?
Wisdom is a lot more significant than age and some young people are much wiser than very old people.
Some old people have just “mellowed”, but that is a way of saying dead tired, not wise or mature. When Nez says that ageism gets traction because of the activities of persons like McCain, that is a little harsh, but truthful. To me, he’s a clown, but to be honest, most politicians, no matter the age, are kind of debilitated morally. Even Obama looks like Janus some days.
i’m laughing at that last line. nice one.
nezua, thank you for articulating so beautifully, an intuitive feel i have for the way of the day in this world. all is good. i gotta believe. the entanglement of us all, from the cradle to the grave at the very least a magic carpet ride. what a trip. i am the genre of the over 50 female, finding my way from all the ages you speak of. my feel is, our only responsibility is to learn, then the teaching is on auto pilot? this is my first response after a couple of moons but had to, even though i want to know how all is at the rnc. i’ll go there later. i don’t have time to express all the soul/spirit stirrings this post of yours has excited in me. thank you for the seeds planted in me, i will nurture them and grow something. i have to get myself to my new place of employment now. as a quizno’s worker i find myself working with the young adults of our time…i go now with a renewed sense of purpose, better defined by you, for me. thank you for keeping my heart fire burning, and as i express my feelings i’m sure i’ll be back with my thoughts. god bless you nezua, “on this journey”.
peace…kathi
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I love this post. I really can’t say anything more or anything deeper than that; but it’s wonderful.